Date: Jan 30, 2012  |  Written by Qseyu  |  Posted Under: Editorial  |  DISQUS With Us: 20 comments

1.7 has promised a host of changes to whole swathes of Rift. Included in the changes is a wholesale revamping of PvP advancement. PvP souls are “going the way of the Dodo” and being replaced by the Attunement of War PA hex tree. The 8 Prestige ranks are being replaced with 40 more granular levels. Most level 50 PvP gear will have Rank restrictions removed, requiring only that one amass the requisite Favour to purchase it. And players below level 13 in the new system will have their stats ‘bolstered’ to make them less squishy and boost competitiveness. Also relevant to this discussion is the addition of PA respeccing (first one’s free, after that it’s 100 plat).

So far, so good. But there are two problems with the way Trion has chosen to implement the new system. First, PvP PA will be commingled with PvE PA. Second, players who have already reached the higher Prestige ranks will have their Rank converted into PA points equivalent to level 38 (out of the 40) but filling out the PvP attunement tree appears to require some 110 PA levels (meaning long-time PvPers will effectively go from being max Rank to being about a third of the way to max).

PvE content also appears to provide significantly more PA xp than PvPing. And, since all PA xp seems to be usable in any hex tree, players who have never done any PvPing at all can, with a (free) respec, get as many PvP levels as players who have spent months actually engaging in PvP content.

This is not only severely punitive to PvP veterans, it flies in the face of the entire purpose of the Planar Attunement system. PA was intended as a series of small bonuses for doing what you do anyway. The cumulative effects are significant but they’re not overwhelming. And Trion has repeatedly and consistently said we don’t need to feel like we have to grind out PA levels and min-max it. PA isn’t supposed to radically change the game.

But now for PvP–but only for PvP–grinding PA is going to be required. Moreover, the arbitrary number of PvP levels doesn’t scale rationally to the scope of the hex tree. Assuming a Rank 8 player converts all of his new PA xp into the Attunement of War tree, he will still need over 70 levels of War PA to fill out the tree. That just doesn’t make sense. If there are 40 PvP levels and 110 or so levels of War Attunement hexes, Rank needs to convert to a greater percentage of the available hexes.

Worse, PvP hexes are now going to be fed mainly by PvE. Regardless of how many more levels one needs to fill out the hex tree after the new paradigm goes live, filling them mainly by PvPing won’t be viable because PvE xp is easier and faster to accrue. Players will feel forced to go PvE whether they want to or not to maintain their competitiveness. Needless to say this has a lot of the hardcore PvP community up in arms.

Meanwhile, Planar Attunement will continue to work more or less as designed for PvE. In short, Trion doesn’t seem to have thought this through.

A player can’t just respec and get full HK gear. She has to actually go do HK. A lot. She can’t PvP and get raid gear, either. She has to go raid. Obviously, some PvP weapons (which will still have PvP level restrictions, at least nominally) are very useful in PvE and some relic weapons are better than their PvP counterparts. That’s fine. No-one thinks the two aspects of the game should be totally and completely isolated from each other. Rather, it just makes sense that the rewards most applicable to one aspect of the game should flow primarily from participating in that aspect of the game.

The basic idea is a good one. Putting PvP talents into PA has the potential to broadly expand the options PvPers have. And raising the max level is actually a plus. It’s always nice to have something else to work toward. But it’s not reasonable to gut the players who’ve already put in the time and effort to reach the top levels. All the more so when players who have little or no time investment at all can match them simply by respeccing (for free). Throwing PvE and PvP PA xp in one basket only compounds the problem.

The fixes for these issues are simple: Make PvP PA only level via xp gained in PvP and give high Rank players more initial PvP PA levels. If Trion makes those two changes, I am confident most of the dissenters will be satisfied.

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  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Paul-Rizzo/1806263396 Paul Rizzo

    So your theory is to give a massive advantage to people who have been playing? EQ2 went F2P for a pretty good reason and WoW has never had a alternate advancement system because WoW players think the same way you do.

    Trion is doing the right thing.

  • http://www.facebook.com/aniola.mateusz Mateusz Anioła

    What a whine. Trion is not only changing 8 ranks into 40 and pvp soul into PA, but they are adding new content. Why would players with rank 8 get the new content at the start? Everyone gets PA levels equal to their prestige rank, thats fair. I would treat the rest of PA levels as a new content that has to be gained. Maybe PvE grants more xp towards PA but I think people that PvE also will get those levels into PvE trees. You can’t totally separate PvP from PvE. As far as I remember Trion said they will rise the xp reward from wf’s. Daily wf quest gives you the same amount of xp as daily T2 dungeon.

  • http://www.outsidethebeltway.com Dodd

    No, my thought is that players who’ve worked for something should not have the value of that effort largely negated. Bolstering is fine for leveling the playing field for newer players, as I said. Valor normalization worked well. But it doesn’t follow that it’s a good idea to effectively nerf veterans. SWG made that mistake and never recovered. When games start treating their veterans as if they don’t matter, they start down the road to oblivion. We all want Rift to prosper. Trion just needs to do a better job than this balancing attracting new players and maintaining the people who’ve been playing (and paying) a long time 
    If it’s true that they’ve bumped up PvP PA xp, that’s a good start on fixing the problems. But PvP PA should still only come from PvPing. And, no, high rank players do not get PA equal to their Rank; that’s the problem. They get barely more than 1/3. New levels to earn is great, as I said. But 1/3 of the rank–that can be matched without ever PvPing for free–is not even close to equivalent. The totally arbitary 40 ranks doesn’t even try to scale to the 110 PA levels. That makes no sense. 

    PvP and PvE advancement should stay separate. Otherwise PA no longer serves its intended function. To repeat: “No-one thinks the two aspects of the game should be totally and completely isolated from each other. Rather, it just makes sense that the rewards most applicable to one aspect of the game should flow primarily from participating in that aspect of the game.”

  • Vatec

    You can use Favor to purchase Crystallized Insight (basically PA). No need to grind PvE at all.

  • Duh

    Kind of shocked by the stupidity of some of these comments.  All of Qseyu/Dodd’s points stand. 

    • Vatec

      And here is a perfect example of why so many non-PvPers wish there were no PvP at all in their favorite MMO: so many PvPers seem incapable of discussing anything with resorting to insults and putdowns.

      • Vatec

        withOUT

        Lack of “edit” FTL….

        • Trololol

          Lol did he hurt your little carebear feelings?

          • Vatec

            Exhibit #2. All attitude, no substance.

            @Qseyu:twitter  – You have my respect for actually putting together solid arguments. I may not agree with you, but at least your article is worthy of discussion, unlike many of the posts that purport to support it.

          • Duh

            I think you missed my original point completely.  I was pointing out that the comments that proceeded my original one were nonsensical, hence: “Kind of shocked by the stupidity of some of these comments”.  I didn’t insult anyone.  There’s a distinct difference between commenting on the stupidity of something someone says or does as opposed to calling the people themselves stupid. 

          • Vatec

            No, there really isn’t. Dismissing people’s posts as “stupidity” is just as rude as calling people “stupid” directly. There’s a world of difference between saying “I disagree with all the posts here except for Dodd’s and Qseyu’s” and saying “all the posts here are stupid except for Dodd’s and Qseyu’s.”

            I disagree quite strongly with Qseyu’s article, especially his contention that PvPers will be forced to engage in PvE activities in order to build up PA levels. But you don’t see me dismissing the article as “stupidity” do you?

            So no, I didn’t miss your original point. I understand it completely. I disagree with it. I still contend that your post was both rude and non-constructive.

            Have a nice day! O_o

          • Duh

            Your point is valid.  Maybe I was being rude.  But that doesn’t change the fact that I do think their posts were, frankly, stupid. 

            I will have a nice day, I legitimately hope you do, too. 

  • Kait

    correct me if I’m wrong… but doesn’t PVP, right now, give XP?  Haven’t these r8′s who have been doing nothing but WFs for moths already earned dozens of levels of PA?

    The 1 pa/rank is in *addition to* the xp that you get from just PVPing.  It’s free xp over and above what you are getting now.  I’m a hell of a slacker and I would be very shocked if I don’t have at least 70 PA levels already, if I wanted to max out my PVP PA it wouldn’t take half of the free PAs I will get.

    The PVP souls were HORRID, I can’t remember seeing one competitive spec that took more than 10 points, and damn few took more than 0.  PVP PA actually has some useful stuff in it (not to mention EVERY toon getting Break Free for free now), this is a better system by all measurements.  There is more, and better, abilities in the PA then there ever was in the soul (I’m looking at you, +5 resist cleric talent!)

    I mean, geeze, Trion gives you a free horse and you spit on it because it doesn’t sparkle or fly.

  • Guest

    I don’t think people really understand the scope of how game braking this pvp pa will be. I mean i know that a person in pve gear with 801 valor (bolstering is so op) with the pa now has like the same stats defense and skill in pvp as someone in full p8 (p38+). Seeing them add the vengeance on pvp gear at all ranks making it do even more dmg vs lower ranks is only proof that they want top rank and no rank pvers to be equal in all ways in a warfront. If you lame people cant figure this out you are failing.

    • Vatec

      And what, exactly, is wrong with them being “equal?” (Which they won’t be, on account of the veterans having hundreds of hours more experience with PvP in general and Rift’s warfronts in particular.)

      PvPers always claim that they want PvP to be skill-based, yet whenever a company makes any effort at reducing the influence of gear and increasing the influence of skill, PvPers come out of the woodworks complaining about it. Which is it? Do you want it to be skill-based? Or do you want people who have “paid their dues” to have a big advantage over the “fresh meat?” You can’t have it both ways….

      • Guest

        i was being sarcastic both gear and skill of a pvper will outway anything a pa tree can give a pve geared person i was trying to take on the persona of one of the people like the editorial writer while pointing out how silly there claims on how op this will make non ranked people in pvp are.

        • SubRock

          Please learn grammar before attempting to write anything else. “Outway”, really? “There” claims? really? Damn your teachers. Damn them.

    • Kait

      if you are r8 and only have 801 valor you are doing something wrong.  get some lesser planars, consumables etc.

  • Abc

    I honestly don’t understand why so many PvP players act like crybabies about this. Granted if I were only doing PvP I would fell kinda rubbed the wrong way about this BUT why go as far as say really stupid stuff like “But PvP PA should still only come from PvPing”. Seriously. I wish I would have just 1 (one) day of playtime where I could just do any given number of random T2 dungeons and NOT have PvP DD players in my group who can’t go beyond 800dps on a single target. PvP players, as the situation is now, take their PvP equip into PvE and still have a little bit out of it so why shouldn’t PvE players be able to use their grinded PA for PvP?
    Just my 2 cents

    • Kait

      the ones who get me are the r8 rifle using rogues who don’t get the “I’m not HK geared, please let me at least HIT the damn mobs” from the tank and start shooting before they even get to the tank.

      then wine about turning into a smear on the back wall when they all turn and gib the rogue….